Thursday, July 5, 2012

Shabbat Mincha

So what is the correct nusach for Shabbat mincha. As noted in my last blog post, Cantor Sherwood Forest Goffin maintains that the correct nusach is Shabbat mincha nusach for Ashrei, Uva L'zion etc until chazarat Hashatz. Chazarat Hashatz is said using the weekday melody until the end of kedusha (yimloch) at which point the chazzan switches back to shabbat mincha nusach

The Big Gong approached the chazzan of the shul in which he grew up for his opinion regarding the correct nusach. Said chazzan (who will not be named because he probably does not want to be associated with this blog - who can blame him?)  maintains the correct nusach is shabbat mincha nusach all the way from Ashrei until the end.

So who is correct? I turn to you, the greater gonging community for your feedback. Please fill in the poll below

Shabbat Shalom ---

The NF


Anonymous said...

To add a third variant, the chazzan in my shul insists that the correct nusach is for kaddish before shmone esrei to also be in weekday nusach (and switch back to shabbos mincha nusach at yimloch)

Jshalet said...

The Yekkish Minhag is Shabbos melody for kaddish before sefer torah and weekday melody before amida.

the NF said...

We went to a yekkish shul (minhag Furth and Frankfurth am Main) when I was a nusach is from the chazzan there --- the only thing said in weekday melody was chazarat hashat"z until yimloch.
Which yekkish minhag are you referring to? (I know there are variants) ---

the NF

Jshalet said...

I am referring to minhag frankfurt. If you are in Jerusalem, you can come to Beitar or Ramot to hear it.

Anonymous said...

The correct davening for Shabbat mincha, according to ALL historical sources is that one davens the Amidah beginning in weekday pentatonic through the Kedusha. At Yimloch the Chazzan switches to the Shabbat mincha variant of Magen Avot mode. MOST sources indicate the Ashrei and Kaddish prior to the Amidah are done in Shabbat mincha mode as well, although there is an argument to be made that using weekday nusach for everything prior to L'dor Vador is appropriate, since the nusach for these prayers usually foreshadows what is coming next (Avot). It is worth noting, though, that weekday mode for these prayers is in minor, closely related to the minor nusach of Shabbat mincha anyway.

This issue has nothing to do with being Yekkishe or not, exactly. All traditions, Eastern Central and Western are the same in this instance. It's just that most "Eastern" shuls in the Orthodox camp don't employ a trained Hazzan, while the Yekkishe shuls are, to say the least, punctilious about their davening no matter who is leading.

Randall said...

Anonymous is absolutely correct (I think I may have penned that response!). I will, however, add one addendum: It is a misnomer to refer to the Pentatonic mode as "weekday" nusach. This nusach, considered to be our oldest, is in fact heard on all days of the year except one (Yom Kippur). The pentatonic mode should really be referred to simply as "Amidah mode." This is to say, that it should be thought of as the stock mode for the Amidah, except for specific occasions which call for special nuschaot. The parallel to this is that the stock mode for Shema u'virchoteha is Ahava Rabbah. Likewise the default for kaddish is Magen Avot study mode. This avoids confusion. Indeed we we should not feel as though we are davening in "weekday" mode at mincha of Shabbat or Rosh Hashana, but rather merely reverting to the default mode. The indicator for this switch is actually the Kedusha itself, which when done in the stam format always uses the stam (pentatonic) nusach. ONly when there are insertions in the Kedusha do Avot and Gevurot deviate. For whatever reason, mincha (except on Yom Kippur) never rates Kedusha insertions or special nusach. This is why the pivot really is at L'dor Vador on Shabbat mincha, not at Yimloch. Even more clearly, at musaf on Festival Chol Hamoed, and Rosh Chodesh during the week, the sources indicate that we switch to Festival mode only at the end of the beracha after Kedusha, NOT at L'dor Vador. The Kedusah, per se, is done the regular way and the change in nusach is for Kedushat haYom. On truly special occassions, apparently, we have a special nusach for Avot, Gevurot and Keusha (think Adoshem malach for musaf of Shabbat), and the pivot to a second special nusach is employed earlier, at either Yimloch or L'dor vador.

Anonymous said...

In San Francisco, some of us learned from Rabbi Alan Lew, z'l, to chant the beginning and end of Mincha to the tune of "it's the only cereal that comes in the shape of animals" a commercial jingle from my 1960's childhood.